Pro Caelio Sections 39-41
Section 39
Tachelle, Brianna, Sarah, Brent
Anyone will say: “is this then your kind of discipline? Thus you find young men? On account of this cause a parent committed and surrendered that boy to you, so he might put together his own youth to love and to pleasure, and so you may support this life and these pursuits? If anyone, judges, was of this kind of resolve in life and this kind of potential and this restraint, so that he refused all pleasures and he made every journey of his life for labor of body and controversy of mind, who did not declare dignity, nor relaxation, nor pursuits of the same age, nor love affairs, nor games, nothing which was worth wishing for in life except what was connected with praise and with dignity, a certain man who, in my opinion, was arranged and endowed with divine virtues. Because of this family I believe that they are Camillus, Fabricus, Curius and all of them, who made so much of these from the least.
Section 40: Seth, Joe, Cory
Truly these types of virtues are scarcely discovered not only in our morals but now in our books. Likewise, the papers fall into disuse, of things which they were securing that former severity; Not only in our writings, we who having escorted are more than which these having cut the account of the events of life with words, but also in the teachings of the Greeks, most educated people, one is yet permitted to speak and write honestly and splendidly with which, when they were not able to cause, someone will step forth at this time having been moved by teaching of the Greeks.
Section 41 Ashley, Katie, Ethan, Seth
Therefore some alleged to make the entire case have a good taste of delight, the men escaped from this speech having been taught by shame. Others thought that dignity needs to be united with pleasure, so that they may unite things inconsistent as much as possible. Those who think the one straight road to praise is with labor, now they exist nearly alone in the schools having been left behind. In fact nature has born many delights for us by which virtue may be lulled asleep sometimes; it showed many slippery ways to the youth by which it is hardly possible for it to stand firm, or that it can hardly progress without an accident and slipping by anyone; it gives a variety of the most pleasant things by which not only this age but also one having been strongly fortified, may be caught.
Tachelle, Brianna, Sarah, Brent
Anyone will say: “is this then your kind of discipline? Thus you find young men? On account of this cause a parent committed and surrendered that boy to you, so he might put together his own youth to love and to pleasure, and so you may support this life and these pursuits? If anyone, judges, was of this kind of resolve in life and this kind of potential and this restraint, so that he refused all pleasures and he made every journey of his life for labor of body and controversy of mind, who did not declare dignity, nor relaxation, nor pursuits of the same age, nor love affairs, nor games, nothing which was worth wishing for in life except what was connected with praise and with dignity, a certain man who, in my opinion, was arranged and endowed with divine virtues. Because of this family I believe that they are Camillus, Fabricus, Curius and all of them, who made so much of these from the least.
Section 40: Seth, Joe, Cory
Truly these types of virtues are scarcely discovered not only in our morals but now in our books. Likewise, the papers fall into disuse, of things which they were securing that former severity; Not only in our writings, we who having escorted are more than which these having cut the account of the events of life with words, but also in the teachings of the Greeks, most educated people, one is yet permitted to speak and write honestly and splendidly with which, when they were not able to cause, someone will step forth at this time having been moved by teaching of the Greeks.
Section 41 Ashley, Katie, Ethan, Seth
Therefore some alleged to make the entire case have a good taste of delight, the men escaped from this speech having been taught by shame. Others thought that dignity needs to be united with pleasure, so that they may unite things inconsistent as much as possible. Those who think the one straight road to praise is with labor, now they exist nearly alone in the schools having been left behind. In fact nature has born many delights for us by which virtue may be lulled asleep sometimes; it showed many slippery ways to the youth by which it is hardly possible for it to stand firm, or that it can hardly progress without an accident and slipping by anyone; it gives a variety of the most pleasant things by which not only this age but also one having been strongly fortified, may be caught.
posted by AwesomeAndrade | 10:51 AM
18 Comments:
Section 40 has two perfect verbs tanslated as present verbs in the second line it should be "fell to disuse" and in t he last line it should be "Stepped forth".
The also really let the translation get away from them in the middle using a lot of words that my group could not even find in the latin and assuming words were not what they are i.e. "not only in our writings" should be "not only among us" and "in the teachings of the greeks" should be "among the greeks."
Section 41 has a lot of clarity and makes sense and meaning to me until the very end where i kind of lose it.
tachelle go spank something
Section 39 looks good. Since I can't figure anything to be wrong would “then is this your kind of discipline? " work better
section 40
Doesn't genera mean produce????
Section 39
They translated "instituis" from line 483 as "find" which doesn't really make sense in the context of the sentence. One definition of this verb is "found" which is where I believe they got the translation from, but the sentence would make a lot more sense if they used one of the other possible translations such as "prepare".
Section 40
They neglect the fact that sumus is part of the verb secuti in their translation. It should be translated as "we have escorted" instead.
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Section 39
In this section, I translated instituis as "brought up. I think they may have mistook the meaning "founded" for "find."
In addition, I thought that adulescentis was singular, referring to Caelius, as opposed to plural referencing young men. This may have thrown off the meaning of the sentence from what I translated to be "Is this the way you brought up this young man?"
I found the middle sentence of section 39 to be extremely difficult in identifying the condition and the conclusion. The extent of the sentence and the length of the condition alone gave me trouble in determining the message that Cicero is trying to convey here.
umm.. well everything im thinking of for section 41, (which is the one i need to comment on..) it all seems to make sense to me, except, as tachelle said, for the very end. But i cant really think of any suggestions for it though.. i just think maybe something needs to be altered in the last phrase there.
quem in line 490 is accusative but it is translated as if it were nominative. The subjects of declaret are contained in the string of nominatives in the tricolon crescens, translated here as objects.
Starting at neque in line 499, the translation starts having some issues. It should read "not only among us, who follow this severed reason in an affair more than in words, but also among the greeks, most learned people, for whom, when they were not able to make, it was permited to speak and to wright honestly and magnificently, certain other lessons emerged from the changed times of the greeks"
Besides the fact that the first sentence should be translated as O.O., which we discussed in class, probaverunt in line 509 is perfect but is translated as a present. Other than that, the translation is quite good.
(The username is from a sports blog I run here, fyi)
Section 39:
I translated the first sentence "Is this your kind of teaching?", as opposed to "Is this then your kind of teaching." I fail to see anything in the Latin that would suggest a "then", nor does its ommission interupt the flow of the English.
While I was translating section 39 of the Pro Caelio during the bus ride to New York City, I encountered some difficulty in translating the last sentance, starting with "Ex hoc genere...fecerunt." However, I gained more understanding of the sentance from our work in class today. (My misunderstanding was entirely grammatical, even though I understood what Cicero was most likely trying to accomplish. (In attributing some of the characteristics of those great men to Caelius.)
As for section 40, I thought that the emphasis of the first sentance had to do with the inlcusion of those great men which were aforementioned in section 39, which led to an interesting, though eventually incorrect translation.
Finally, the one problem that I encountered within section 41 was at the very end. I seem to concur with the others who have written here before me, since I seem to have had trouble in concluding the section properly.
the first clause of section 41 makes no sense with the context, and would be better translated as "therefore some said to make sense of the whole case of pleasure,"
In the second sentence of section 40, there are three problems which throw off the meaning: quae was translated as an accusative when it should be nominative, illam was translated as genative when it should have been accusative, and as tachelle said, obsoleverunt was translated as present when it should have been perfect. With these corrections the sentence is translated as "likewise, the papers, which preserved that forrmer severity, fell into disuse."
In section 41, one problem I saw was that in the last sentence two words were left out of the translation: multarum(many) and iam(even now/already).
39:
"Conlocaret" seems to be better translated as "devoted" or "dedicated" rather than "put together." This translation does not seem to fit the meaning well. I'm also not sure where they got "dignity" for "quies," which I translated as "rest."
40:
". . .one is yet permitted to speak and write honestly and splendidly with which, when they were not able to cause. . ."
This should refer to the Greeks, not the "present-day" Romans. This is a tense and subject error. I had, ". . .Greeks, who, though they could not act in such a manner, where still free to speak and write honorably and magnificently."
41:
"Therefore some alleged to make the entire case have a good taste of delight, the men escaped from this speech having been taught by shame."
I'm not quite sure where they got some of this. I don't see "sapienties," the subject of the clause, and this messes up the entire meaning. Cicero is speaking of ancient Greek philosophers, not the current case.
Most of the corrections my group made have already been posted, but I didn't see this one here 0:
In Section 40, the sentence qui hanc sectam rationemque vitae re magis quam verbis secuti sumus was translated as: we who having excorted are more than which these having cut the account of the events of life with words. Our group changed it to: who have adopted more than these who have cut the account of the events of life with/through words.
The implicated meanings of adopted and escorted are totally different; it makes more sense to have adopted teachings from the writings of the Greeks pertaining to ways of life than it does to have escorted them.
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